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1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
13 years 11 months ago - 13 years 11 months ago #1696
by Belayoff
By 1883, Comstock mine production had been in decline for some time. Occasionally, new veins would be discovered or old diminishing sources would suddenly swell in productivity for a few months or even longer. With lower volumes of bullion coming out of the ground, even the San Francisco based mine owners elected to process their raw precious metals in Carson City rather than incurring the added shipping costs out to the west coast.
Evidence of the region's decline in mineral wealth was graphically displayed for the people working in and around Virginia City when in 1883, Piper's Opera house burned to the ground for the second time. The owner claimed that waning opera house receipts did not warrant its reconstruction. The building was eventually reconstructed, for the third and last time, with generous contributions of time, money and labor from the Virginia City community. Had the public not stepped in, the famous Piper's Opera House would have remained a pile of ashes to this day.
By 1883, the Superintendant of the Carson City mint, James Crawford, was well known in Nevada and had earned every bit of the respect and good will that he commanded in the community. When in 1883, the often maligned mines at Como began to show significant promise, Crawford's influence with people and businesses in the region played a large role in bringing Como's gold bullion to the government's branch mint on North Carson Street.
Only 14 or 15 miles east of Carson City as the crow flies, Como's gold, when added to increased bullion deposits from Virginia City mine owners brought a welcome degree of stability to the mint. In fact, the $1,384,030 in face value of gold coins produced at the little Nevada mint in 1883 was a 9.1% increase over its gold coin production in the previous year, despite the huge mintage of 82,817 $5 half eagles minted at Carson City in 1882.
There's a decent chance that the 1883-CC Eagle in your collection is made up of Como gold from the Pine Nut Mountains, instead of Gold Hill bullion as you may have taken for granted! Maybe we should change our club's name to C5OA...not!
Regardless of where the gold bullion came from, today's remaining examples of the 1883-CC $10 Eagle, our Carson City Coin of the Week for December 3, 2010, is one of those unique coin dates that can be described as both reasonably available AND exceedingly rare. Avid collectors of Carson City coins recognize this seemingly enigmatic statement as common place when describing the collectability of the gold coins produced at the famous Nevada mint. But for those readers new to the realm of the double C mint mark, I should explain further.
From an original mintage of 12,000, there exists today at least 275 examples of the 1883-CC Eagle in all grades and conditions. As Carson City gold coins go, the '83-CC Eagle might be considered a somewhat "common date" coin in relation to its CC minted brethren. Of the nineteen years the $10 Eagle was minted at Carson City, the 1883-CC Eagle's extant population is substantially exceeded only by five other dates, the 1881, '90, '91, '92, and 1893-CC Eagles.
Despite the fairly generous number of existing specimens, 98.5% of all certified 1883-CC Eagles are graded AU-58 or lower. Only 5 have been certified in uncirculated condition with none higher than MS-61. Excluding the $10 Eagles minted at Carson City during the 1870's, only the 1882-CC Eagle, with just 3 known, has fewer uncirculated examples.
For any relatively new coin collectors reading this brief article, this tiny group of uncirculated examples among a fairly large remaining group of circulated coins, is known as a "conditional" rarity. When characterizing the 1883-CC eagle's rarity, it's precisely this juxtaposition of its graded population which renders the coin a bit of an enigma.
An expanded comparison of all known Carson City minted $10 Eagles in uncirculated condition produces the following set of interesting statistics;
1870-1879 > 60,652 Eagles minted - 13 unc. examples remain = 0.021%
1880-1884 > 63,894 Eagles minted - 161 unc. examples remain = 0.25%
1890-1893 > 175,232 Eagles minted - 2,589 unc. exmpl remain =1.48%
The 1883-CC Eagle's microscopic population of 5 uncirculated examples represents about two tenths of one percent of the remaining population of uncirculated Carson City Eagles.
At the opposite extreme, with 2,137 uncirculated examples extant, the 1891-CC Eagle represents 77.4% of all the remaining, uncirculated Carson City Gold Eagles minted from 1870 through 1893.
After reviewing these statistics, one would anticipate a substantial spike in value for an certified, uncirculated 1883-CC Eagle...and you would be correct. Current pricing references show a 100% price increase from AU-58 to MS-60 as noted by NGC while PCGS posts a 200% value increase between these two grades.
Clearly, this value increase is a powerful incentive for cracking out AU-58 super sliders for resubmission. Perhaps this renders today's published total of 21, certified AU-58 examples, somewhat suspect. I would not be surprised if the true number of AU-58 specimens of this date is actually closer to 17 or 18.
There are three die varieties of the 1883-CC Eagle. The variances are all found on the reverse side since all '83-CC Eagles share a common obverse die. The spacing of the C's in the mint mark and their size make up the chief elements of the three different varieties. However, on the third and rarest variety, an orange peel-like surface condition can be seen along with a double punching of the mint mark and some slight machine doubling of the eagle's beak and left wing tip .
In his reference book, Gold Coins of the Carson City Mint, Douglas Winter tells us that the typical 1883-CC Eagle is generally well struck, with the exception of the third and rarest die variety. He states that the center areas of the 1883-CC Eagle are most often weak with a lack of detail in the hair around Ms. Liberty's face and above the ear. On the reverse, the Eagle's neck feathers and right claw details are typically weak as well.
Regardless of the mintage year examined, most authors describing Carson City minted Eagles state in no uncertain terms that the surfaces almost always heavily abraded. On the positive side, Winter touts the satiny luster on the 1883-CC eagle as superior to most other dates. There are even a few "proof-like" coins of this date in existence, though their surfaces have an odd, rippled, or orange-peel texture. He summarizes his description of this date by emphasizing the difficulty of locating a lightly abraded 1883-CC Eagle with good eye appeal which has not been cleaned and, or dipped.
The AU-58 example pictured at the top of this article is from the Rians Bequeath Collection of Carson City Coins. This specimen is one of the strongest AU examples of any gold coin in the collection, easily rivaling the luster and surface quality of many uncirculated CC coins from the collection. For comparison, I offer the below images of two uncirculated Carson City Eagles, also from the Rian's Bequeath Collection.
The strike on the subject 1883-CC AU-58 Eagle is very complete. As stated earlier, the usual weak points for the '83-CC Eagle are the coin's centers including the hair above the ear, the eagle's neck feathers and its right claw. The subject coin shows no weakness in any of these areas except the tiny hair curl above the ear which is a bit soft.
The pictured coin has very lightly abraded surfaces with only three noticeable dings. The first is in front of the forehead hair curl, another is found on the reverse, just below the lower arrow head and the third is located just below the word "trust" in the ribbon.
Other than tiny abrasions and marks most likely caused by other coins in the same bank bag, it is very difficult to find any obvious points of wear on this specimen.
Without a doubt, the strongest asset of the subject coin is its bright, original luster on both obverse and reverse sides. Both sides reflect back the light with a strong cartwheel effect that simply cannot be duplicated on a coin whose original skin has been removed by dipping, cleaning or circulation wear. I am far from an expert on the subject of Carson City minted gold coins, but in my opinion, this AU-58 1883-CC Eagle has never been dipped or cleaned in any way. While I turned out to be the lucky owner of this coin, but I have to give the credit for finding it to my friend and numis-mentor, Rusty Goe.
Locating a truly collectible example of the 1883-CC Eagle, the Carson City Coin of the Week, is nowhere near as easy as it appears when first reviewing the generous number of examples remaining. However, if a person is careful and very patient, a worthy example can be located in grades from VF through AU, hopefully, without breaking the bank.
In grades below VF, prices quoted by NGC and PCGS are fairly close with PCGS certified coins just a few percentage points higher. From VG-8 through VF-30 both companies quote the price for a certified 1883-CC Eagle from $1,000 up to $1,200. But as the grade climbs to XF and above, not only does the price increase, the variance between NGC and PCGS becomes exponentially larger as demonstrated in the below chart;
XF-40 NGC - $1,250 PCGS - $1,800. No Plus Pricing
AU-50 NGC - $2,400 PCGS - $2,900 PCGS PLUS - $3,200
AU-53 NGC - $2,940 PCGS - $3,750 PCGS PLUS - $4,350
AU-55 NGC - $4,330 PCGS - $6,200 PCGS PLUS - $7,500
AU-58 NGC - $7,960 PCGS - $12,000 PCGS PLUS - $16,000
MS-60 NGC - $15,630 PCGS - $30,000 No Plus Pricing
Coin pricing can be as subjective as coin grading due to the variances in eye appeal and quality within each and every grade level. However, the above pricing chart is relatively accurate when compared to archival records from 2008, 2009 and 2010. However, the published pricing by PCGS for their "Plus" graded coins is simply an educated guess based on their substantial experience with selling both average and superior quality coins. Except for one AU example noted in PCGS Coin Facts records, there are no Plus graded 1883-CC Eagles reported in the PCGS population guide as of today's date.
Regardless of whether the NGC and PCGS published prices are always accurate, one aspect of their charts is 100% spot on. This is the fact that a person can always expect to pay a substantially higher price for a PQ coin.
Even though the 1883 mintage is not the rarest of the 19 dates in the Carson City Eagle series, it nonetheless remains a serious challenge to locate a lightly abraded, lustrous example in any grade of the 1883-CC Eagle, the December 5, 2010 Carson City Coin of the Week.
Belay Off
References utilized in the above article;
1. Rusty Goe, The Mint on Carson Street and James Crawford, The Master of the Mint at Carson City.
2. Robert R. Van Ryzin, Crime of 1873 - The Comstock Connection.
3. Grant H. Smith, The History of the Comstock Lode.
C4OA Lifer!
1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10 was created by Belayoff
[img size=400]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...1883-cc-pcgs58-1.jpg
[/IMG size=400]
1883-CC AU-58 PCGS Eagle
From The Rian's Bequeath Collection
1883-CC $10 Eagle - Carson City Coin of the Week
By 1883, Comstock mine production had been in decline for some time. Occasionally, new veins would be discovered or old diminishing sources would suddenly swell in productivity for a few months or even longer. With lower volumes of bullion coming out of the ground, even the San Francisco based mine owners elected to process their raw precious metals in Carson City rather than incurring the added shipping costs out to the west coast.
Evidence of the region's decline in mineral wealth was graphically displayed for the people working in and around Virginia City when in 1883, Piper's Opera house burned to the ground for the second time. The owner claimed that waning opera house receipts did not warrant its reconstruction. The building was eventually reconstructed, for the third and last time, with generous contributions of time, money and labor from the Virginia City community. Had the public not stepped in, the famous Piper's Opera House would have remained a pile of ashes to this day.
By 1883, the Superintendant of the Carson City mint, James Crawford, was well known in Nevada and had earned every bit of the respect and good will that he commanded in the community. When in 1883, the often maligned mines at Como began to show significant promise, Crawford's influence with people and businesses in the region played a large role in bringing Como's gold bullion to the government's branch mint on North Carson Street.
Only 14 or 15 miles east of Carson City as the crow flies, Como's gold, when added to increased bullion deposits from Virginia City mine owners brought a welcome degree of stability to the mint. In fact, the $1,384,030 in face value of gold coins produced at the little Nevada mint in 1883 was a 9.1% increase over its gold coin production in the previous year, despite the huge mintage of 82,817 $5 half eagles minted at Carson City in 1882.
There's a decent chance that the 1883-CC Eagle in your collection is made up of Como gold from the Pine Nut Mountains, instead of Gold Hill bullion as you may have taken for granted! Maybe we should change our club's name to C5OA...not!
Regardless of where the gold bullion came from, today's remaining examples of the 1883-CC $10 Eagle, our Carson City Coin of the Week for December 3, 2010, is one of those unique coin dates that can be described as both reasonably available AND exceedingly rare. Avid collectors of Carson City coins recognize this seemingly enigmatic statement as common place when describing the collectability of the gold coins produced at the famous Nevada mint. But for those readers new to the realm of the double C mint mark, I should explain further.
From an original mintage of 12,000, there exists today at least 275 examples of the 1883-CC Eagle in all grades and conditions. As Carson City gold coins go, the '83-CC Eagle might be considered a somewhat "common date" coin in relation to its CC minted brethren. Of the nineteen years the $10 Eagle was minted at Carson City, the 1883-CC Eagle's extant population is substantially exceeded only by five other dates, the 1881, '90, '91, '92, and 1893-CC Eagles.
Despite the fairly generous number of existing specimens, 98.5% of all certified 1883-CC Eagles are graded AU-58 or lower. Only 5 have been certified in uncirculated condition with none higher than MS-61. Excluding the $10 Eagles minted at Carson City during the 1870's, only the 1882-CC Eagle, with just 3 known, has fewer uncirculated examples.
For any relatively new coin collectors reading this brief article, this tiny group of uncirculated examples among a fairly large remaining group of circulated coins, is known as a "conditional" rarity. When characterizing the 1883-CC eagle's rarity, it's precisely this juxtaposition of its graded population which renders the coin a bit of an enigma.
An expanded comparison of all known Carson City minted $10 Eagles in uncirculated condition produces the following set of interesting statistics;
1870-1879 > 60,652 Eagles minted - 13 unc. examples remain = 0.021%
1880-1884 > 63,894 Eagles minted - 161 unc. examples remain = 0.25%
1890-1893 > 175,232 Eagles minted - 2,589 unc. exmpl remain =1.48%
The 1883-CC Eagle's microscopic population of 5 uncirculated examples represents about two tenths of one percent of the remaining population of uncirculated Carson City Eagles.
At the opposite extreme, with 2,137 uncirculated examples extant, the 1891-CC Eagle represents 77.4% of all the remaining, uncirculated Carson City Gold Eagles minted from 1870 through 1893.
After reviewing these statistics, one would anticipate a substantial spike in value for an certified, uncirculated 1883-CC Eagle...and you would be correct. Current pricing references show a 100% price increase from AU-58 to MS-60 as noted by NGC while PCGS posts a 200% value increase between these two grades.
Clearly, this value increase is a powerful incentive for cracking out AU-58 super sliders for resubmission. Perhaps this renders today's published total of 21, certified AU-58 examples, somewhat suspect. I would not be surprised if the true number of AU-58 specimens of this date is actually closer to 17 or 18.
There are three die varieties of the 1883-CC Eagle. The variances are all found on the reverse side since all '83-CC Eagles share a common obverse die. The spacing of the C's in the mint mark and their size make up the chief elements of the three different varieties. However, on the third and rarest variety, an orange peel-like surface condition can be seen along with a double punching of the mint mark and some slight machine doubling of the eagle's beak and left wing tip .
In his reference book, Gold Coins of the Carson City Mint, Douglas Winter tells us that the typical 1883-CC Eagle is generally well struck, with the exception of the third and rarest die variety. He states that the center areas of the 1883-CC Eagle are most often weak with a lack of detail in the hair around Ms. Liberty's face and above the ear. On the reverse, the Eagle's neck feathers and right claw details are typically weak as well.
Regardless of the mintage year examined, most authors describing Carson City minted Eagles state in no uncertain terms that the surfaces almost always heavily abraded. On the positive side, Winter touts the satiny luster on the 1883-CC eagle as superior to most other dates. There are even a few "proof-like" coins of this date in existence, though their surfaces have an odd, rippled, or orange-peel texture. He summarizes his description of this date by emphasizing the difficulty of locating a lightly abraded 1883-CC Eagle with good eye appeal which has not been cleaned and, or dipped.
The AU-58 example pictured at the top of this article is from the Rians Bequeath Collection of Carson City Coins. This specimen is one of the strongest AU examples of any gold coin in the collection, easily rivaling the luster and surface quality of many uncirculated CC coins from the collection. For comparison, I offer the below images of two uncirculated Carson City Eagles, also from the Rian's Bequeath Collection.
[img size=400]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...10-1891-cc-ngc63.jpg
[/IMG size=400]
[img size=400]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...0-1890-cc-pcga61.jpg
[/IMG size=400]
The strike on the subject 1883-CC AU-58 Eagle is very complete. As stated earlier, the usual weak points for the '83-CC Eagle are the coin's centers including the hair above the ear, the eagle's neck feathers and its right claw. The subject coin shows no weakness in any of these areas except the tiny hair curl above the ear which is a bit soft.
The pictured coin has very lightly abraded surfaces with only three noticeable dings. The first is in front of the forehead hair curl, another is found on the reverse, just below the lower arrow head and the third is located just below the word "trust" in the ribbon.
Other than tiny abrasions and marks most likely caused by other coins in the same bank bag, it is very difficult to find any obvious points of wear on this specimen.
Without a doubt, the strongest asset of the subject coin is its bright, original luster on both obverse and reverse sides. Both sides reflect back the light with a strong cartwheel effect that simply cannot be duplicated on a coin whose original skin has been removed by dipping, cleaning or circulation wear. I am far from an expert on the subject of Carson City minted gold coins, but in my opinion, this AU-58 1883-CC Eagle has never been dipped or cleaned in any way. While I turned out to be the lucky owner of this coin, but I have to give the credit for finding it to my friend and numis-mentor, Rusty Goe.
Locating a truly collectible example of the 1883-CC Eagle, the Carson City Coin of the Week, is nowhere near as easy as it appears when first reviewing the generous number of examples remaining. However, if a person is careful and very patient, a worthy example can be located in grades from VF through AU, hopefully, without breaking the bank.
In grades below VF, prices quoted by NGC and PCGS are fairly close with PCGS certified coins just a few percentage points higher. From VG-8 through VF-30 both companies quote the price for a certified 1883-CC Eagle from $1,000 up to $1,200. But as the grade climbs to XF and above, not only does the price increase, the variance between NGC and PCGS becomes exponentially larger as demonstrated in the below chart;
XF-40 NGC - $1,250 PCGS - $1,800. No Plus Pricing
AU-50 NGC - $2,400 PCGS - $2,900 PCGS PLUS - $3,200
AU-53 NGC - $2,940 PCGS - $3,750 PCGS PLUS - $4,350
AU-55 NGC - $4,330 PCGS - $6,200 PCGS PLUS - $7,500
AU-58 NGC - $7,960 PCGS - $12,000 PCGS PLUS - $16,000
MS-60 NGC - $15,630 PCGS - $30,000 No Plus Pricing
Coin pricing can be as subjective as coin grading due to the variances in eye appeal and quality within each and every grade level. However, the above pricing chart is relatively accurate when compared to archival records from 2008, 2009 and 2010. However, the published pricing by PCGS for their "Plus" graded coins is simply an educated guess based on their substantial experience with selling both average and superior quality coins. Except for one AU example noted in PCGS Coin Facts records, there are no Plus graded 1883-CC Eagles reported in the PCGS population guide as of today's date.
Regardless of whether the NGC and PCGS published prices are always accurate, one aspect of their charts is 100% spot on. This is the fact that a person can always expect to pay a substantially higher price for a PQ coin.
Even though the 1883 mintage is not the rarest of the 19 dates in the Carson City Eagle series, it nonetheless remains a serious challenge to locate a lightly abraded, lustrous example in any grade of the 1883-CC Eagle, the December 5, 2010 Carson City Coin of the Week.
Belay Off
References utilized in the above article;
1. Rusty Goe, The Mint on Carson Street and James Crawford, The Master of the Mint at Carson City.
2. Robert R. Van Ryzin, Crime of 1873 - The Comstock Connection.
3. Grant H. Smith, The History of the Comstock Lode.
C4OA Lifer!
Last edit: 13 years 11 months ago by Belayoff.
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13 years 11 months ago - 13 years 11 months ago #1697
by Carsonite
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Carsonite on topic Re:1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
Belay Off,
You present a thorough analysis of the 1883-CC gold eagle. Your comparison of survival totals for the three decades in which "CC" eagles were made is very telling:
Removing the 1891-CC eagles from a list of "CC" eagles reveals how rare is the aggregate total of the other 18 dates in the series.
Very good job from top to bottom.
Rusty
P.S. – I appreciate the reference to the obscure mining camp of Como, Nevada Territory. This, as you know, was where James Crawford's career in Nevada began. I was fortunate to visit this picturesque location when doing research for my book on Crawford. Being there had the effect of transporting me 145 years back into Nevada's history. It would make a great place for a C4OA field trip.
You present a thorough analysis of the 1883-CC gold eagle. Your comparison of survival totals for the three decades in which "CC" eagles were made is very telling:
An expanded comparison of all known Carson City minted $10 Eagles in uncirculated condition produces the following set of interesting statistics;
1870-1879 > 60,652 Eagles minted - 13 unc. examples remain = 0.021%
1880-1884 > 63,894 Eagles minted - 161 unc. examples remain = 0.25%
1890-1893 > 175,232 Eagles minted - 2,589 unc. exmpl remain =1.48%
Removing the 1891-CC eagles from a list of "CC" eagles reveals how rare is the aggregate total of the other 18 dates in the series.
Very good job from top to bottom.
Rusty
P.S. – I appreciate the reference to the obscure mining camp of Como, Nevada Territory. This, as you know, was where James Crawford's career in Nevada began. I was fortunate to visit this picturesque location when doing research for my book on Crawford. Being there had the effect of transporting me 145 years back into Nevada's history. It would make a great place for a C4OA field trip.
C4OA Lifer!
Last edit: 13 years 11 months ago by Carsonite. Reason: Text sizing
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13 years 11 months ago #1698
by Garryn
Replied by Garryn on topic Re:1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
Very complete and very interesting article on the 1883-CC Eagle. I see you have one of only two PCGS AU-58's. Yours is also the wide spaced mintmark variety.
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13 years 11 months ago #1699
by Belayoff
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Belayoff on topic Re:1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
Carsonite,
Thanks for the Kudos. Even though nothing new was said, I try to make the retelling of the basics fun. For me, the research and writing process IS the payoff. Unfortunately, my articles are still way too wordy...sorry Mr Zinsser. Someday I'll learn to write weller.
I would absolutely love to explore Como and surrounds. You're right, it would be a great excuse for a C4OA gathering, informal or otherwise.
Belay Off
PS: After recently reviewed the photos of several uncirculated 1883-CC Eagles, I have yet to find one that I would trade my "58" for!
Thanks for the Kudos. Even though nothing new was said, I try to make the retelling of the basics fun. For me, the research and writing process IS the payoff. Unfortunately, my articles are still way too wordy...sorry Mr Zinsser. Someday I'll learn to write weller.
I would absolutely love to explore Como and surrounds. You're right, it would be a great excuse for a C4OA gathering, informal or otherwise.
Belay Off
PS: After recently reviewed the photos of several uncirculated 1883-CC Eagles, I have yet to find one that I would trade my "58" for!
C4OA Lifer!
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13 years 11 months ago #1700
by Belayoff
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Belayoff on topic Re:1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
Gar,
Like I said in the article...I am the lucky owner of this coin.
I reviewed as many photos as I could find of the '83-CC Eagle but could not locate an example of the third variety. I wanted to show images of all three mint mark variances in the article but could only locate two of the three.
Belay Off
Like I said in the article...I am the lucky owner of this coin.
I reviewed as many photos as I could find of the '83-CC Eagle but could not locate an example of the third variety. I wanted to show images of all three mint mark variances in the article but could only locate two of the three.
Belay Off
C4OA Lifer!
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- coindrummer
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- Michael D. Parrott
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13 years 11 months ago #1709
by coindrummer
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by coindrummer on topic Re:1883-CC $10 Carson City Coin of the Week 12/5/10
Belay
Once again you have provided a most thorough presentation of a treasured gold rarity from the Carson mint.
You provide an interesting fact regarding the gold/mine origin for this date. As the comstock fell into decline, gold bullion began finding its way to the Carson mint from places like Candelaria (NV), Bodie (CA) as well as Como.
I truly hope we C4OA members do a field trip to Como one of these fine days.
Your coin is a most splendid example. And yes...you are the lucky owner. As the old saying goes "If you're lucky enough to won "CC" gold...you are lucky enough"
Thank you for your fine article.
My review is late...but better late than never!
the drummer
Once again you have provided a most thorough presentation of a treasured gold rarity from the Carson mint.
You provide an interesting fact regarding the gold/mine origin for this date. As the comstock fell into decline, gold bullion began finding its way to the Carson mint from places like Candelaria (NV), Bodie (CA) as well as Como.
I truly hope we C4OA members do a field trip to Como one of these fine days.
Your coin is a most splendid example. And yes...you are the lucky owner. As the old saying goes "If you're lucky enough to won "CC" gold...you are lucky enough"
Thank you for your fine article.
My review is late...but better late than never!
the drummer
C4OA Lifer!
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