1879-CC $20 Carson City Coin of the Week 1-23-2011

1879-CC is the rarest Type 3 Carson City $20.

Circulation mintage: 10,708

While this coin is rare in high grades, the overall level of rarity for the 1879-CC has been exaggerated in the past. A hoard of EX and AU pieces entered the market in the early 1990's and were quickly absorbed by collectors. Another 10 or so Mint State specimens entered the market in late 2002.

The 1879-CC is usually seen with a sharp strike and for some reason is generally found with fewer deep,distracting surface marks than other issues of this era.

PCGS prices are as follows,

VF $3,500
EX $6,000
AU-55 $20,000
MS-60 $35,000

When it comes to buying a coin there appears a difference of opinion among our members on what constitutes a "proper" buy. It seems that implication is that if the coin was not bought by the "Knowledge Based Coin Selection" method that it is a bad buy. It would be nice to have this method explained in more detail. What exactly is this knowledge?

For example, the above described coin was purchased from a reputable dealer (meaning it could be returned, etc.), it was authenticated by PCGS and assigned a grade, CAC confirmed the grading. This coin has not been "deeped" and it has very few abrasions for a Carson City double eagle. The retail price is around $20,000. the wholesale price is around $14,000 and I paid for it $17,500.

Where did I go wrong? What else was missing from this transaction?

The 1879 saw reduction of gold available at the Carson City Mint and at the same time work was moved from production of double eagles to smaller denomination coins. In fact in 1880 and 1881 double eagles were not produced at all.

At the same time a few hundred miles south from Carson City in Arizona territory a new boom town was started when a miner came across a vein of very rich silver ore in a high plateau called Goose Flats. The miner named his claim "The Tombstone", after a warning given him by a passing soldier. The soldier told him that in these waterless hills and full of warring Apaches of the area all the miner would find is his tombstone.

The total value of gold and silver taken from Tombstone during first four years of activity was around $25,000,000. Without railroad access and without water it was difficult to process ore. Ore was taken by mule trains down the hill for processing.

Lack of water for panning forced prospectors to use dry washers, like one shown above, when searching for gold. After pouring the sample into the top, the belows action would blow out the lighter material hopefully leaving the heavier gold.

The city of Tombstone was quite wealthy and much money was spent during its boom times. Soon lawers began to settle in Tombstone and became even wealthier than the miners.

At present Tombstone's economy is based on tourism. It receives approximately 450,000 visitors each year. This winter break my wife and I added to that number when we visited there during vacation in southern Arizona.

Over the years Tombstone has lent its name to many Western movies. The movies portray open conflict between rural farmers involved in the cattle-trade and businessmen who were managing local mines.

What about the silver and gold? I could not locate any references showing where it all went. My guess is that it was shipped to the San Francisco Mint. Any other ideas?

John Armonas

Whatever knowledge based collecting means, John, it has no effect on your coin. It is awesome. I wish I could afford a '79-cc dollar in AU-55 much less a double eagle. :laugh:

Gar

John,

What is knowledge based collecting? I'm still learning myself, so please allow me to answer your question in a different way.

The history of coin collecting is highlighted by famous collectors whose very names were associated with the finest coins extant, regardless of grade. No better example can be made of this unwritten numismatic law than the name Eliasberg.

Everyone wants to own coins that were once part of the incredible "Eliasberg" collection. And why not? Mr. Louis Eliasberg acquired the best of the best. Over a half century since completing his world renowned US Type collection, any coin with an Eliasberg pedigree is likely to be in the top five or ten percent of the finest examples known. What an incredible feat this was at a time when communications took place at glacial speed and coins were inspected one at a time by responding to printed ads through the mail.

Mr. Eliasbergs steadfast and patient system of personally inspecting thousands of coins, ultimately brought him mountains of firsthand knowledge about every aspect of each coin he sought. In this manner, he ultimately acquired incredibly high quality examples of every US coin ever minted. Today, the name Eliasberg is literally synonymous with "knowledge based collecting".

Ms Maya replied to a similar query about this topic made by you last year. She wrote;

I think if you are at all familiar with the numismatic market, you should understand that coin grading is subjective, and the quality of same-grade coins can vary greatly.

Comparing same-grade coins is NOT comparing apples-to-apples – Often, coins of the same date and mintmark graded the same (even by top grading services), vary greatly in appearance (eye-appeal), wear, luster, and detail. Instead, think of a coins grade as you would a cars mileage. If you have two identical cars that both have 120,000 miles—one in day-to-day trips to-and-from work with maintenance done every 10,000 miles, and the other in rugged, off-road, mud-pit driving, with no oil changes ever—there will be differences in the quality of the vehicles, regardless of the mileage.

Last year when PCGS announced their Secure Plus system, Garryn righty pointed out the some of the benefits to the coin industry, including catching counterfeit coins and coin doctoring. You replied with a posting which listed the three main points of PCGSs Secure Plus. The third point you listed was;

3. Increased liquidity, higher value, and sight-unseen trading of PQ coins.

Garryn and I both remarked that such a thing is only for fast paced investors who only buy by volume, not quality. The best coins will always be collected by practitioners of Knowledge Based Collecting. Plastic holders with assigned grades and CAC stickers are just ways to generally separate coins in batches. Other tools like the grey sheet and other color sheets are other ways of grouping coins into loose batches. In the end, the best quality coins within any group, are always "cherry picked" by those with the most knowledge...with very few exceptions.

Per Wikipedia, The ANA was founded "TO ADVANCE THE KNOWLEDGE OF NUMISMATICS". The slogan for the ANA's own journal is "ADVANCED STUDIES IN NUMISMATICS".

The Liberty Seated Collectors Club is one of the most influential and respected numismatic organizations in this country. Their stylized club logo prominently highlights their motto... KNOWLEDGE - THRU - RESEARCH.

You might recall an article I wrote for the spring 2009 edition of Currys Chronicle entitled "The Aftermath of a PQ Epiphany". The subject of the piece is about my introduction to the reality of Knowledge Based Coin Collecting and the steep and humbling price I paid to learn. Since then, when I write about this subject, it's with modesty having learned the hard way. I talk about this method to help new coin collectors so they don't have to make the same stupid mistakes I did.

John, I'm sure your 1879-CC Double Eagle is a beauty. But that's not the point nor has it ever been in the many previous posts and conversations in which you seem to have reached the wrong conclusion about the coin collecting methods we discuss on this web site.


Belay Off

PS....Nice article on the 1879-CC $20 in this weeks CC coin of the Week posting. Tombstone is a cool place, as is Bisbee, Jerome and several other mining ghost towns in Arizona that have turned into artsy communities.

Belay OFF,

In theory your knowledge based approach is very sound. In practice only select few with a lot of money can collect that way.

In your example Mr. Eliasberg did have one of the best collections. He was a banker with almost unlimited resources and time.

If I had to wait until someone would place 1,000 1879-CC $20 coins in front of me so I could choose the best one from the lot, I would run out of time on this earth. I do not believe that I will encounter such an opportunity.

At present I would like to complete the $20 CC set in this lifetime, using my limited resources, limited knowledge and some help from ANA, PCGS, NGC, etc.

As far as example about cars goes, I drive a Chevy (it is in mint condition) since I cannot afford a Rolls Royce.

You use your method, I will use mine and lets have fun collecting CC coins.

John Armonas

John,

It looks like you bought an attractive 1879-CC double eagle.

You shared in your COTW posting what you have learned about 1879-CC $20 gold pieces, what is meaningful to you about the year 1879, and the mechanics involved in your decision-making process when you buy a coin. This is what the Carson City Coin of the Week project is all about. You, like all the other COTW participants, learn something from each profile you post; and all the readers of these posts benefit from the experience. This all helps the C4OA achieve its goal of increasing knowledge on the subject of the Carson City Mint and the coins produced there.

You wrote that the:

1879-CC is the rarest Type 3 Carson City $20.

Actually, this honor goes to the 1891-CC double eagle, with its low mintage of 5,000 pieces.

I wish you good luck in your quest to build a complete set of "CC" $20 gold pieces.

Rusty

Whoa there fella! No reason to take offense. You asked me what this was all about...remember? As I said, I am still learning so, I just gave you some examples to explore if and as you choose. If you're not interested, no worries.

However, you did bring up something that should be addressed. It has to do with the Chevy you mentioned. The point is this...knowledge based coin collecting is for anyone, regardless of what kind of car they drive. Whether a person's budget can afford a VG-10 or an MS-65 the methodology, and particularly the benefits, are exactly the same!

Case in point... I dont yet have the depth of knowledge to trust myself purchasing the higher grade Carson City coins I intend for my primary Collection. Ive made too many mistakes in the past when acquiring certified Mint State and AU coins for my Type collection. However, Rusty Goe has decades of experience handling CC coins, so over the past several years, he has helped me identify, examine and correctly acquire each and every coin in my CC collection.

Just like you John, I do not care to wait another 20 years to build my CC collection while waiting for my personal knowledge to build sufficiently. Instead, I employ the skills of a professional that I trust to help me expand my collection, while learning a ton in the process. Be that as it may, we pass on many, many more coins than we make offers on.

At the same time, I am building another Carson City silver coin collection with grades well below "Fine" in order to build my own collecting skills without making mistakes that are too expensive.

Thus far, I have added 27 coins to this second CC collection and have passed on five times that number. The collection is just an old Chevy, but it's real clean. The engine runs well, there are no major dents in the body, only minor scratches in the paint and the chrome trim is pretty straight.

Belay Off