1870-CC Rotated reverse

I put this in the News and Events section also.

Jim Sneddon wrote an article in the Winter 2009 edition discussing 1870-CC dollars with rotated reverses. Here is one I just found. Hopefully a member here can obtain it...


certifieddollar.com/store/product_info.p...th=4&products_id=169

Looks like 65 degree rotation. The PCGS number is 60024712. If you click on the photo at right, a magnified version will appear. I hope I can include the photo here without a problem. I wonder if anyone can determine the obverse and reverse varieties? The enlarged photo on the website might be a better resolution.

G,

The rotated reverse is cool but, in my mind, not worth the premium they are asking. Not to mention that the coin is quite unattractive, especially for an AU-55. This was probably graded some time ago making it one of the classification of coins that our south Dakota friend was referring to when he said coins were typically over graded.

At almost 17k, they are dreaming anyway. Below is my 1870-CC $1 AU-50, for which I paid one third the price they are asking. In my humble opinion, this is what an Almost Uncirculated coin should look like.

Belay Off

I understand it is overpriced. It does have an odd look for an AU. It would be nice if someone could examine it and determine the obverse and reverse varieties, though. Jim did not mention an AU example in his article. I like yours. Thats an AU for sure. It looks closer to mint state in the photo. Is the reverse mint state?

I had an opportunity to buy a VG example of the 1870-CC for $280 in 1999. It was on my local bid board but someone out bid me the night the board closed and I could not be there to bid. I have not seen one there since. I didnt know anything about rotated reverses then but I am 99% sure that this one was not rotated. Nothing unusual about it.

In issue number 103 of the Gobrecht Journal, The Gobrecht Journal has a Pledge that encourages, promotes and dispenses numismatic knowledge of Liberty Seated Coins; to cultivate fraternal relations among its members and all those interested in the science of numismatics, I wrote an article titled ,”Another Rotated Reverse 1870-CC Seated Dollar” which appears on pages 26 and 27.

Not long ago after very few purchases and an entire day of walking the floor at a major coin show my day took a sudden and dramatic turn. Just as I was about to call it a day, there seemed to be one last dealer table that drew me in closer despite the crowded bourse traffic. As I was inching my way forward and looking into one of the cases, something very interesting caught my eye. I was able to get the Dealers attention and he let me examine an 1870-CC Seated dollar that had the words Mint Error on the certified label. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the coin was graded by PCGS VF35 followed by a notation that its reverse was rotated clockwise through 65 degrees.

After further examination of this unusual coin and with friendly opinions from other collectors, we concluded that this 1870-CC dollar was struck from obverse 1 with the date left variety and reverse 4 that was used to strike some 1870-CC dollars and all known 1873-CC Seated dollars. Obverse 1 has the date left with the tip of the shield over the left side of the upright of the 1 in the date. This obverse was described and illustrated by John Kroon in his article on 1870-CC dollars in issue #32 of the Gobrecht Journal. Reverse 4 has a widely spaced CC mintmark with the serif of the left C near the feather tip and the serif of the right C very close to the branch stem. This reverse was described and illustrated by John Kroon in his article on 1870-CC dollars in issue #23 of the Gobrecht Journal. Both of the Kroon articles have been reprinted in Collective Volume Number Two of the Gobrecht Journal as well.

In Issue #79 of the Gobrecht Journal Weimar White describes an incredible 1870-CC dollar that he had the opportunity to examine at the 2000 ANA Convention in Philadelphia. This coin was owned by Nathan Sonnheim and had been certified as ANACS XF40 details. White noticed that the coin had a rotated reverse and used a protractor to estimate the angle of rotation to be 65 degrees clockwise from upright. Additional study determined that the piece was struck from the obverse 1; reverse 4 die pair, the same dies that were used to produce the coin that I had purchased.

In Issue #26 of the Gobrecht Journal,Weimar White describes and illustrates a beautiful brilliant uncirculated 1870-CC dollar in deep prooflike condition. He describes this coin as having its reverse rotated 20 degrees clockwise from upright. Interestingly enough, this same coin is illustrated on the covers of the second edition of his book on Coin Chemistry that was published in 2006. His pictures of this beautiful specimen show that it was also struck from the obverse 1; reverse 4 die pair.

I have documented the existence of three 1870-CC Seated dollars that have their reverses rotated clockwise , all struck from the same obverse 1; reverse 4 die pair. While this date is considered to be rare with a rotated reverse, it is not known how many more error coins of this date might exist. I would therefore like to ask readers to examine the 1870-CC dollars they possess and report any specimens that they find with rotated reverses. In this original post we see a fourth specimen is available for sale and appears to also have a rotation of approximately 65 degrees.

Weimar White has stated that he believes the obverse 1; reverse 4 die pair was used to strike the first Carson City dollars. He has speculated that these rotated reverse errors might be an indication that the new branch Mint was experiencing problems during its initial striking of dollar coins. Several questions come to mind that we may be able to answer with additional study of these rotated reverse coins. How rare is the 1870-CC dollar with a rotated reverse? Were all of the rotated reverse coins of this date struck from the same die pair? And how many different rotations might exist for this date?

I consider my purchase of this 1870-CC Seated Dollar coin with a rotated reverse at a price of just $1,300 to be absolutely amazing and it only proves that there are still some incredible deals out there on Carson City Coins!

Tom DeFina

You are probably right, Tom, that the 65 degree rotated reverse is one die pair. Are there rotated reverses of any different degrees of rotation?

I dont know why I just thought of this, but the photo of the coin I posted is bugging me. Does anyone have any reason to believe that coin may be in a counterfeit holder? It doesnt look right at all. :S

Garryn,

I have only heard of the 2 different degrees of rotation, either (20) or (65) degrees. Again, if anyone out there has an 1870-CC dollar with a rotated reverse, it would be great if you could share the information so we can determine more data regarding the die pair(s) and also to note any other degrees of rotation found.

As for the picture of the coin you originally posted. I have not gone back to see if this coin had ever been sold or if it is still listed on the same Dealers website??? I understand from others who have purchased from this Dealer that he is an honest Dealer.

I have seen many CC coins that have a poor look such as this coin in question does. If anyone has an account with PCGS or knows someone who works for them, perhaps, PCGS can look up the coin number etc. to at least determine if they actually did certify this piece. Could it possibly be a counterfeit piece in a holder with the correct certified number?, sure the ppossibility is there, but I would think the Dealer who is selling the coin would have flagged something wrong with it long ago had this been the case???

I would certainly hate to find out its a fake at $17,000!!!
Tom DeFina