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1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
14 years 1 month ago - 14 years 1 month ago #1525
by Belayoff
C4OA Lifer!
1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010 was created by Belayoff
1870-CC 25C - PART TWO -
CARSON CITY COIN OF THE WEEK - OCTOBER 3, 2010
In Part One, we examined the origins of the 1870-CC quarter and the mysteries surrounding the coin's release into the public domain. With help from the illustrious duo of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. John H. Watson, several possible solutions for unraveling these mysteries were submitted for C4OA members' consideration. Ultimately, Mr. Holmes' hypotheses may not have solved any numismatic problems, but at the very least, his efforts highlighted how much there is yet to learn about this enigmatic, Carson City coin.
The mysteries involving this rare coin do not emanate only from the 19th century.
In fact, another mystery worthy of attention has popped up in just the last 40 years concerning the coin's extant population.
The Puzzling Case of the H. Phillip Speir Specimen
A strict review of the certified census clearly shows only one uncirculated example of the 1870-CC quarter, the MS-64, Eliasberg coin. Yet, Rusty Goe, in The Mint on Carson Street, suggests there may be two uncirculated coins out there. He points to a second, reportedly uncirculated example, the H. Phillip Speir coin, which was auctioned off in 1974 , for $5,250 and has not reappeared in the 36 years since.
The MS-64, NGC graded Eliasberg example sold for $187,000 in 1997. If the H. Phillip Speir coin is truly an uncirculated piece similar to the Eliasberg example, it might easily bring $300,000 or more in today's market. Not a bad investment considering it's $5,250 sale price in 1974! Given the huge profit available to the 1974 buyer of the H. Phillip Speir coin, one has to wonder why the coin has never resurfaced...but perhaps it has!
Your diligent Coin of the Week author and tireless researcher, Belay Off, offers a theory which suggests that the H. Phillip Speir coin has, in fact, resurfaced and has been hiding in plain sight all along. Besides, my C4OA pals would be sorely disappointed if I didn't include at least one harebrained idea in every article.
WARNING: If you've just eaten dinner or, otherwise, have a delicate constitution, skip to the last few paragraphs of this article where you can refresh yourself with undisputed and worthwhile facts about the 1870-CC quarter. All others, take two Maalox tabs and read on.
Not all transfers of rare coins include monetary consideration. We know through existing records that the coin has not appeared in any auctions since 1974. Assuming the coin has not been sold in a private sale, the other remaining transfer possibility is through an inheritance.
Consider the large number of non-interested and numismatically unsophisticated family members who have inherited important coin collections down through the ages. We would like to think these lucky folk would seek professional guidance before selling their inherited coins. Unfortunately, this is not always the case as is shown by the high number of cleaned, Carson City minted coins among today's extant population. I hate to think how many benefactors have first grabbed the silverware polish and a rag to clean up grandpa's old coins before seeking value advice. I believe this may have been the plight of the H. Phillip Speir coin. With this thought in mind, perhaps we can find the illusive H. Phillip Speir example of the 1870-CC quarter.
Fast forward to the 2006 Heritage sale of the Jules Reiver Collection of Seated Liberty Quarters. This auction included an unique example of the 1870-CC quarter which, at one time, might have been described as uncirculated. The qualification "at one time" is used because the coin has been heavily cleaned and is encapsulated in an NCS holder. The NCS label states "AU Details, Improperly Cleaned".
A reasonably close examination of the Jules Reiver specimen (pictured below), using photographs from Heritage Auction archives reveals a coin with little or no material signs of circulation wear, although the coin has been harshly cleaned. Use your imagination to view this coin in your mind's eye. What would the coin look like with its original patina and without the unsightly cleaning solution residue and the other damaging effects from the heavy cleaning. I, for one, can see how this coin might have been considered an uncirculated example some 40 years ago.
Therefore, the Belay Off The Wall speculation of the week submits;
The Jules Reiver coin and the H. Phillip Speir coin may be one and the same!
Before laughing yourself into a fit of hiccups at this ludicrous suggestion, consider these facts. Since 1995, 34 examples of the 1870-CC quarter have sold at Heritage Auctions. Of these, 16 (47%) were either inappropriately cleaned, artificially altered or outright damaged.
Regardless of whether or not the Jules Reiver coin is the missing H. Phillip Spier example, a huge mistake was made some time in the past by whomsoever cleaned this potentially high grade coin. Had the Jules Reiver coin been left in its original condition, it may have been worth $200,000 or more if almost uncirculated and easily more than $300,000 if truly uncirculated. Regardless of what could have been, the AU-Details - Improperly Cleaned, NCS certified, Jules Reiver coin was auctioned off in January, 2006 for a disappointing $23,000.
Even though this writer is a die-hard advocate of knowledge based coin selection, the numismatic significance of ANY 1870-CC quarter must be appreciated, even one that has been harshly cleaned like the Jules Reiver coin. When viewed from a strict historical perspective, I must admit that the Jules Reiver specimen was a pretty good buy at $23,000.
Collectability of the 1870-CC Quarter
PCGS has received 41 submissions of the 1870-CC quarter with NGC reporting only 24. Even though some of these are probably re-submissions of the same coin, the total number of certified, 1870-CC quarters has nearly doubled over the last ten years. Of this increase, 78% has occurred since the 2003 release of Rusty Goe's
The Mint on Carson Street.
Despite the growth in the number of known examples of the 1870-CC quarter over the last decade, statistics presented in this article show that about half of today's extant population has been harshly cleaned, artificially altered or outright damaged. Additionally, many of the certified 1870-CC quarters graded years ago might not qualify at all by today's tough grading standards. With such limiting factors to contend with, any person owning a truly collectible example of this very special, Carson City minted coin in any grade, is a very lucky individual.
Over the last decade, the value of the 1870-CC quarter has continued to advance despite erratic economic cycles. Market theory states that when supplies of any commodity increase, prices decline. However, as an investment vehicle, the subject coin defies this theory. The number of certified examples of the 1870-CC quarter have almost doubled over the last ten years yet, during the same period, the average recorded auction price has doubled as well!
By way of example, an AU-53 piece sold in auction during 2001 for $27,600. In July of 2009, a certified 1870-CC quarter, graded VF 35, sold for the exact same price, $27,600. A non-scientific review of sale prices for the 1870-CC quarter beginning in the late 1990's yields a median growth trend of a about 125%, or 12.5% non- compounded, annual growth. This is a stunning record, especially in view of the decade's two major recessions.
Today, our most often used price guides provide the following values for the rare and pricey, 1870-CC quarter. Premium examples will cost more in all grades.
PCGS Price Guide
--10
15
20
30
40
50
53
55
12,000...16,000...18,000....27,500.....40,000......60,000......65,000......75,000
*NGC Price Guide
--VG
F
VF
XF
50
53
55
58
60
15,900..20,000..24,380..42,190...53,130....60,630.....70,630.....74,380.....86,630
*Note: I find it a bit interesting that the highest graded 1870-CC quarter is the Eliasberg coin, graded MS-64 by NGC. Yet there is no stated value for an MS 64 coin in the NGC price guide. Also, there are no coins graded by NGC at AU-55, AU-58 or MS-60, yet NGC publishes values for these hypothetical grades. Perhaps someone reading this article will post an answer to this puzzling item on the C4OA web site.
Some references such as Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins describe a single, die variety. This variety concerns a straight topped, first "C" in the "CC" mint mark. The typical double "C" mint mark struck on the 1870 quarter's reverse are small, round and disproportionally wide apart
The 1870-CC issue is not the rarest in the Carson City quarter series, that honor is reserved for the 1873-CC Without Arrows quarter. However, the coin is among the top 25 Dates in the entire Carson City coin mintage. An interesting side point is found in The Mint on Carson Street, published by Rusty Goe in 2003. On page 498, Rusty compares the estimated values of the highest graded examples for each of the top 25 CC coins. In this comparison, the MS-64 Eliasberg coin is the top dog for the 1870-CC quarter. With an estimated value of $375,000, the Eliasberg coin's value was eclipsed by only three other coins! These are the 1873-CC Without Arrows 10c graded MS-65, the 1873-CC Without Arrows 25c graded MS-66, and the 1889-CC Morgan Dollar graded MS-68.
When all the facts are in, it does not take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that this first year, Carson City minted quarter has one of the most beguiling histories of all the 111 dates in the CC series. There remains much to learn about this particular coin and a better than average chance that many of the coin's riddles will never be unraveled. Be that as it may, the 1870-CC quarter has been a fascinating subject to research and a challenge to write about for this week's Carson City Coin of the Week.
Belay Off
CARSON CITY COIN OF THE WEEK - OCTOBER 3, 2010
[img size=300]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...1870-CC25cVF35Ob.jpg
[/IMG size=300]
[img size=300]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...70-CC25cVF-35Rev.jpg
[/IMG size=300]
1870-CC 25c VF-35 PCGS
In Part One, we examined the origins of the 1870-CC quarter and the mysteries surrounding the coin's release into the public domain. With help from the illustrious duo of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. John H. Watson, several possible solutions for unraveling these mysteries were submitted for C4OA members' consideration. Ultimately, Mr. Holmes' hypotheses may not have solved any numismatic problems, but at the very least, his efforts highlighted how much there is yet to learn about this enigmatic, Carson City coin.
The mysteries involving this rare coin do not emanate only from the 19th century.
In fact, another mystery worthy of attention has popped up in just the last 40 years concerning the coin's extant population.
The Puzzling Case of the H. Phillip Speir Specimen
A strict review of the certified census clearly shows only one uncirculated example of the 1870-CC quarter, the MS-64, Eliasberg coin. Yet, Rusty Goe, in The Mint on Carson Street, suggests there may be two uncirculated coins out there. He points to a second, reportedly uncirculated example, the H. Phillip Speir coin, which was auctioned off in 1974 , for $5,250 and has not reappeared in the 36 years since.
The MS-64, NGC graded Eliasberg example sold for $187,000 in 1997. If the H. Phillip Speir coin is truly an uncirculated piece similar to the Eliasberg example, it might easily bring $300,000 or more in today's market. Not a bad investment considering it's $5,250 sale price in 1974! Given the huge profit available to the 1974 buyer of the H. Phillip Speir coin, one has to wonder why the coin has never resurfaced...but perhaps it has!
Your diligent Coin of the Week author and tireless researcher, Belay Off, offers a theory which suggests that the H. Phillip Speir coin has, in fact, resurfaced and has been hiding in plain sight all along. Besides, my C4OA pals would be sorely disappointed if I didn't include at least one harebrained idea in every article.
WARNING: If you've just eaten dinner or, otherwise, have a delicate constitution, skip to the last few paragraphs of this article where you can refresh yourself with undisputed and worthwhile facts about the 1870-CC quarter. All others, take two Maalox tabs and read on.
Not all transfers of rare coins include monetary consideration. We know through existing records that the coin has not appeared in any auctions since 1974. Assuming the coin has not been sold in a private sale, the other remaining transfer possibility is through an inheritance.
Consider the large number of non-interested and numismatically unsophisticated family members who have inherited important coin collections down through the ages. We would like to think these lucky folk would seek professional guidance before selling their inherited coins. Unfortunately, this is not always the case as is shown by the high number of cleaned, Carson City minted coins among today's extant population. I hate to think how many benefactors have first grabbed the silverware polish and a rag to clean up grandpa's old coins before seeking value advice. I believe this may have been the plight of the H. Phillip Speir coin. With this thought in mind, perhaps we can find the illusive H. Phillip Speir example of the 1870-CC quarter.
Fast forward to the 2006 Heritage sale of the Jules Reiver Collection of Seated Liberty Quarters. This auction included an unique example of the 1870-CC quarter which, at one time, might have been described as uncirculated. The qualification "at one time" is used because the coin has been heavily cleaned and is encapsulated in an NCS holder. The NCS label states "AU Details, Improperly Cleaned".
A reasonably close examination of the Jules Reiver specimen (pictured below), using photographs from Heritage Auction archives reveals a coin with little or no material signs of circulation wear, although the coin has been harshly cleaned. Use your imagination to view this coin in your mind's eye. What would the coin look like with its original patina and without the unsightly cleaning solution residue and the other damaging effects from the heavy cleaning. I, for one, can see how this coin might have been considered an uncirculated example some 40 years ago.
[img size=300]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...ver1870-CC25cobv.jpg
[/IMG size=300]
The Jules Reiver Coin - Obverse
[img size=300]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...ver1870-CC25crev.jpg
[/IMG size=300]
The Jules Reiver Coin - Reverse
Therefore, the Belay Off The Wall speculation of the week submits;
The Jules Reiver coin and the H. Phillip Speir coin may be one and the same!
Before laughing yourself into a fit of hiccups at this ludicrous suggestion, consider these facts. Since 1995, 34 examples of the 1870-CC quarter have sold at Heritage Auctions. Of these, 16 (47%) were either inappropriately cleaned, artificially altered or outright damaged.
Regardless of whether or not the Jules Reiver coin is the missing H. Phillip Spier example, a huge mistake was made some time in the past by whomsoever cleaned this potentially high grade coin. Had the Jules Reiver coin been left in its original condition, it may have been worth $200,000 or more if almost uncirculated and easily more than $300,000 if truly uncirculated. Regardless of what could have been, the AU-Details - Improperly Cleaned, NCS certified, Jules Reiver coin was auctioned off in January, 2006 for a disappointing $23,000.
Even though this writer is a die-hard advocate of knowledge based coin selection, the numismatic significance of ANY 1870-CC quarter must be appreciated, even one that has been harshly cleaned like the Jules Reiver coin. When viewed from a strict historical perspective, I must admit that the Jules Reiver specimen was a pretty good buy at $23,000.
Collectability of the 1870-CC Quarter
PCGS has received 41 submissions of the 1870-CC quarter with NGC reporting only 24. Even though some of these are probably re-submissions of the same coin, the total number of certified, 1870-CC quarters has nearly doubled over the last ten years. Of this increase, 78% has occurred since the 2003 release of Rusty Goe's
The Mint on Carson Street.
[img size=400]
i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy166/BelayO...rter-1870-pcgs12.jpg
[/IMG size=400]
1870-CC 25c F-12 PCGS
Despite the growth in the number of known examples of the 1870-CC quarter over the last decade, statistics presented in this article show that about half of today's extant population has been harshly cleaned, artificially altered or outright damaged. Additionally, many of the certified 1870-CC quarters graded years ago might not qualify at all by today's tough grading standards. With such limiting factors to contend with, any person owning a truly collectible example of this very special, Carson City minted coin in any grade, is a very lucky individual.
Over the last decade, the value of the 1870-CC quarter has continued to advance despite erratic economic cycles. Market theory states that when supplies of any commodity increase, prices decline. However, as an investment vehicle, the subject coin defies this theory. The number of certified examples of the 1870-CC quarter have almost doubled over the last ten years yet, during the same period, the average recorded auction price has doubled as well!
By way of example, an AU-53 piece sold in auction during 2001 for $27,600. In July of 2009, a certified 1870-CC quarter, graded VF 35, sold for the exact same price, $27,600. A non-scientific review of sale prices for the 1870-CC quarter beginning in the late 1990's yields a median growth trend of a about 125%, or 12.5% non- compounded, annual growth. This is a stunning record, especially in view of the decade's two major recessions.
Today, our most often used price guides provide the following values for the rare and pricey, 1870-CC quarter. Premium examples will cost more in all grades.
PCGS Price Guide
--10
15
20
30
40
50
53
55
12,000...16,000...18,000....27,500.....40,000......60,000......65,000......75,000
*NGC Price Guide
--VG
F
VF
XF
50
53
55
58
60
15,900..20,000..24,380..42,190...53,130....60,630.....70,630.....74,380.....86,630
*Note: I find it a bit interesting that the highest graded 1870-CC quarter is the Eliasberg coin, graded MS-64 by NGC. Yet there is no stated value for an MS 64 coin in the NGC price guide. Also, there are no coins graded by NGC at AU-55, AU-58 or MS-60, yet NGC publishes values for these hypothetical grades. Perhaps someone reading this article will post an answer to this puzzling item on the C4OA web site.
Some references such as Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins describe a single, die variety. This variety concerns a straight topped, first "C" in the "CC" mint mark. The typical double "C" mint mark struck on the 1870 quarter's reverse are small, round and disproportionally wide apart
The 1870-CC issue is not the rarest in the Carson City quarter series, that honor is reserved for the 1873-CC Without Arrows quarter. However, the coin is among the top 25 Dates in the entire Carson City coin mintage. An interesting side point is found in The Mint on Carson Street, published by Rusty Goe in 2003. On page 498, Rusty compares the estimated values of the highest graded examples for each of the top 25 CC coins. In this comparison, the MS-64 Eliasberg coin is the top dog for the 1870-CC quarter. With an estimated value of $375,000, the Eliasberg coin's value was eclipsed by only three other coins! These are the 1873-CC Without Arrows 10c graded MS-65, the 1873-CC Without Arrows 25c graded MS-66, and the 1889-CC Morgan Dollar graded MS-68.
When all the facts are in, it does not take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that this first year, Carson City minted quarter has one of the most beguiling histories of all the 111 dates in the CC series. There remains much to learn about this particular coin and a better than average chance that many of the coin's riddles will never be unraveled. Be that as it may, the 1870-CC quarter has been a fascinating subject to research and a challenge to write about for this week's Carson City Coin of the Week.
Belay Off
C4OA Lifer!
Last edit: 14 years 1 month ago by Belayoff.
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- coindrummer
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14 years 1 month ago #1529
by coindrummer
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by coindrummer on topic Re:1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
Hi Belay
You have succeeded in pointing out some amazing (and heretofor unknown)
facts about the rare date 1870-CC quarter. I can seee where it needed 2 complete articles to encompass what needed be stated concerning this special coin.
You make several intriguing points concerning the Reiver/Speir example...the way you presented your case establishes a high possibility that these 2 coins are indeed one in the same. What an impressive job of behind the scenes investigation here...my hat's off to you!! Honestly, where do you find this info?
Again Belay, a superb (and may I add, "fun to read") article on a very elusive coin.
the drummer
You have succeeded in pointing out some amazing (and heretofor unknown)
facts about the rare date 1870-CC quarter. I can seee where it needed 2 complete articles to encompass what needed be stated concerning this special coin.
You make several intriguing points concerning the Reiver/Speir example...the way you presented your case establishes a high possibility that these 2 coins are indeed one in the same. What an impressive job of behind the scenes investigation here...my hat's off to you!! Honestly, where do you find this info?
Again Belay, a superb (and may I add, "fun to read") article on a very elusive coin.
the drummer
C4OA Lifer!
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14 years 1 month ago #1530
by Belayoff
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Belayoff on topic Re:1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
Drummer...
Of course, the glaring weakness in the Belay-Off-The-Wall speculation of the week is the lack of a photo image of the H Phillip Speir coin. Try as I may, I could not find one.
Regardless, the two coins present an intriguing possibility worth chatting about!
Belay Off
Of course, the glaring weakness in the Belay-Off-The-Wall speculation of the week is the lack of a photo image of the H Phillip Speir coin. Try as I may, I could not find one.
Regardless, the two coins present an intriguing possibility worth chatting about!
Belay Off
C4OA Lifer!
Please Log in to join the conversation.
14 years 1 month ago - 14 years 1 month ago #1532
by Carsonite
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Carsonite on topic Re:1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
Belay Off,
Sometimes conjecture is the only tool available when we are researching pedigrees on classic rarities. You have posed an interesting theory about the connection between the Reiver 1870-CC quarter and the Speir specimen. Following are several points worth considering:
At our C4OA Boston meeting, Coin World Editor Beth Deisher said she might call upon us to update prices in Coin Values magazine. Also, David Bowers told the Red Book editor he should call on me to update values for "CC" coins in that publication.
Once again, I congratulate you for giving us much to contemplate in your COTW posting (a two-parter no less).
All of you guys (Belay Off, The Drummer, GarryN, LITAS, Sierrabiker, and Randy C.—I hope I haven't missed anyone) have done an excellent job keeping this project alive.
Rusty
Sometimes conjecture is the only tool available when we are researching pedigrees on classic rarities. You have posed an interesting theory about the connection between the Reiver 1870-CC quarter and the Speir specimen. Following are several points worth considering:
- The Speir specimen sold in the Stack's R. L. Miles, Jr. sale in 1969 for $1,250
- Auction catalog images and research by numismatists connect the Miles-Speir 1870-CC quarter to the one graded AU-53 by NGC, which first drew attention in the 1998 Superior Rasmussen sale (Wes Rasmussen did not own the quarter, his collection in the auction consisted of Large cents)
- Someone dipped the Miles-Speir-NGC AU-53 1870-CC quarter at one time—The coin is now toned in moderate shades of different colors
At our C4OA Boston meeting, Coin World Editor Beth Deisher said she might call upon us to update prices in Coin Values magazine. Also, David Bowers told the Red Book editor he should call on me to update values for "CC" coins in that publication.
Once again, I congratulate you for giving us much to contemplate in your COTW posting (a two-parter no less).
All of you guys (Belay Off, The Drummer, GarryN, LITAS, Sierrabiker, and Randy C.—I hope I haven't missed anyone) have done an excellent job keeping this project alive.
Rusty
C4OA Lifer!
Last edit: 14 years 1 month ago by Carsonite. Reason: Spacing
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14 years 1 month ago #1533
by coindrummer
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by coindrummer on topic Re:1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
Hi Carsonite
Many thanks for that information. These are all new things I learned just from this fabulous article and your reply. Thank God for this site!!:woohoo:
the drummer
Many thanks for that information. These are all new things I learned just from this fabulous article and your reply. Thank God for this site!!:woohoo:
the drummer
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14 years 1 month ago #1534
by Belayoff
C4OA Lifer!
Replied by Belayoff on topic Re:1870-CC 25c Part Two CC Coin of the Week Oct 3, 2010
Thanks Sherlock! I was able to find good written data on the coin back to the 1969 sale, but not photographs. The Stacks web site did not allow me to tap auctions that far back. I'm sure I could have secured photographs from the ANA library but I simply ran out of time. Besides, as I said in the article, y'all would be disappointed if I didn't throw at least one crazy idea out there!
One other interesting note about the H. Phillip Speir specimen is that the coin has been auctioned seven times beginning with the 1969 sale. While seven auction appearances over 41 years is not unusual, I do find it strange that four of these auction appearances occurred in less than three years! These four auction dates were Feb 1998, August 1999, June 2000, and October 2000. The coin failed to sell at the October auction.
Thanks too, for the Kudos directed to the COW boys. Speaking for myself, I've benefitted greatly from the knowledge and experience gained while researching and writing about my subject Carson City coins, not to mention all the fun I've had as well.
Thanks...Belay Off
Belay Off
One other interesting note about the H. Phillip Speir specimen is that the coin has been auctioned seven times beginning with the 1969 sale. While seven auction appearances over 41 years is not unusual, I do find it strange that four of these auction appearances occurred in less than three years! These four auction dates were Feb 1998, August 1999, June 2000, and October 2000. The coin failed to sell at the October auction.
Thanks too, for the Kudos directed to the COW boys. Speaking for myself, I've benefitted greatly from the knowledge and experience gained while researching and writing about my subject Carson City coins, not to mention all the fun I've had as well.
Thanks...Belay Off
Belay Off
C4OA Lifer!
Please Log in to join the conversation.
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